I asked every TV manufacturer 17 questions about how they spy on you

317 points by Brajeshwar 6 hours ago

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throwa356262 5 hours ago | 0 points

<pre><code> LG: No. ACR in LG TVs does not collect or store screenshots, screen images, screen recordings... </code></pre> Hold on, we already know this is not true. There is even an option in the settings to disable this (which is usually automatically reverted by LG within a week).The setting has the obvious name of "Live Plus".

butlike 3 hours ago | 0 points

Their full answer illumniates what they are doing> ACR in LG TVs does not collect or store screenshots, screen images, screen recordings, or video recordings from the TV. Instead, it uses audio fingerprints generated from content audio using the TV’s internal soundboard (not a speaker) to identify the content being viewed.So based on the fingerprint they know what content is being displayed, but they can say they're not recording your screen.

CGMthrowaway 32 minutes ago | 0 points

This is the same way that the TSA says they "delete your photo and biometrics" after taking it at airport security.

nashashmi 39 minutes ago | 0 points

That answer is very sly. Wonder how many others are guilty of this too.

somedude895 3 hours ago | 0 points

I work in marketing. LG literally offers to target people who've recently watched a competitor's ad. When I asked how that's possible the sales guy openly admitted that "they know what's showing on their panels."Maybe he just said that to make a sale, but yeah the fact they offer that targeting alone is quite telling.

desolate_muffin 2 hours ago | 0 points

If they use audio-based ACR, they do know what's showing without needing to send any screen content telemetry.

CGMthrowaway 32 minutes ago | 0 points

They're describing ACR

amiga386 2 hours ago | 0 points

"We own the glass"You may do LG, or maybe you just think you do. Either way, I won't ever buy your TVsHow LG market their control over you to their customers (advertisers):<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=820s" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=820s</a>> "we know who's in the LG household. We know which devices are there. We know what you're exposed to on TV and we know how to extend that reach into mobile."> "Most streaming households subscribe to multiple streaming services. So, our line of sight to the screen can really help our partners."> "We own the glass. We own the TV."> "We own the glass"> "Since we own the screen, and we own the operating system..."LG's statements about how much they can help their advertising partners just get so much worse as the rest of the video goes on.LG absolutely need to be slapped out of thinking they "own" anything after the point of sale, and the only way to do this, given how laden with spyware these TVs are, is to NEVER BUY THEM.

mitxela 36 minutes ago | 0 points

"own the glass" refers to the very last step in the advertising display chain. You might not notice it because it's invisible to the end user, but basically every step in the signal chain from studio to eyeball is trying to rip out the previous step's ads and overwrite them with its own. Glass is the last step before eyeballs, so it gets ultimate authority.

autoexec 1 hour ago | 0 points

All these companies are probably lying to some degree. There's no reason to trust them.

drnick1 42 minutes ago | 0 points

They are lying through their teeth. We know from independent investigations and reverse engineering efforts that the TVs capture audio/video for the mothership. Also, the devices are effectively remotely controlled and can be updated at a moment's notice to suit the current commercial strategy of the true owner of the device (it's not you).

monocularvision 3 hours ago | 0 points

They say in their answer that they use audio fingerprinting for ACR instead of screenshots. Are you certain they are lying about this?

tensegrist 5 hours ago | 0 points

note they didn't say "LG TVs do not…" which might indicate whatever lawyer drafted this found a vaguely legally plausible way to attribute that to something other than ACR

ihsw 4 hours ago | 0 points

"Not wittingly"[1] in a nutshell.[1] "James Clapper claims the NSA does not carry out mass surveillance on Americans"; <a href="https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-committee/user-clip-james-clapper-not-wittingly/4521220" rel="nofollow">https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-committee/user-clip-james...</a>

WhyNotHugo 1 hour ago | 0 points

Every word in that statement is key for it to be true.For example, if they screen-scrape locally and extract/collect metadata, then the statement is true technically true. I'm sure you can think of many other subtle variations of the truth where the statement is not false but still misleading.

tomkarho 3 hours ago | 0 points

Ballsy for LG to deny anything considering what started all this.

sixothree 2 hours ago | 0 points

I don't think they're denying anything. I think they're muddying the technologies. They're saying "we don't need the screenshot to know what's displayed on your screen". With ACR, you don't need screenshots because you know what the content is. My understanding is that ACR is basically a fingerprint of the screenshot.Am I misinterpreting their answer?

GoToRO 5 hours ago | 0 points

they don't collect the screenshots, they store a fingerprint of the screenshot. They are not lying. Also they do store but not collect.

davsti4 4 hours ago | 0 points

"ACR uses audio fingerprinting technology using the TV’s internal audio processor (not a speaker) to identify content and does not collect screenshots, screen recordings, video recordings, voice recordings, or other audio recordings from the TV. Where ACR is available and enabled, ACR-related information may be used for audience segmentation and viewing or audience trend analysis. Interest-based advertising and cross-device advertising require separate user consent through the applicable advertising-related agreements."... and later ..."ACR uses audio fingerprinting technology to identify content. Rather than collecting screenshots, screen recordings, or visual content from the TV screen, ACR extracts a digital fingerprint of the TV content being viewed using the TV’s internal audio processor (not a speaker). ACR does not collect or store voice recordings, other audio recordings, screenshots, screen images, or video recordings from the TV."From here: <a href="https://www.lg.com/global/newsroom/news/statements/statement-understanding-privacy-on-lg-smart-tvs/" rel="nofollow">https://www.lg.com/global/newsroom/news/statements/statement...</a>

cyanydeez 4 hours ago | 0 points

Right, that hash is an entrypkint to match to a screenshot elsewhere. A perceptu hash, pseodo anonymity. A lawyers-coders lie. A polices parallel construction. LG still knows what you watch.

daveevad 2 hours ago | 0 points

One aspect, perhaps worthy of some scrutiny, is how the database of hashes is produced. One presumes there's an assortment of cable boxes and/or satellite dishes feeding hundreds of channels into an ingestion mechanism that stores the fingerprints into a database. There are a lot of edge cases that are technically challenging, especially when considering the 210 or so local markets in the US. It'd be interesting to learn how that is done and whether any digital locks are circumvented in the process.

phendrenad2 3 hours ago | 0 points

That's why I don't share my PGP public key, it's just a perceptu hash of my private key! Nice try, hackers!

hyperman1 2 hours ago | 0 points

You jest, but ssh/git has a similar problem. The client tries every key it can if the config is naive enough. So, the server knows which cluster of public keys identify the same person. Github is said to do this kind of fingerprinting.

cyanydeez 2 hours ago | 0 points

I don't think you understand.Actually keeping screenshots would be expensive. They of course don't care what the content is. You care what the PGP content is.They care about what you're watching, so in the dystopian future, they can tell a government that your bin of hashes are 90% banned content and you should be denaturalized because you're clearly a communist cross-dressing monkey from mars.It's bizarre you think it's equal to knowing a PGP key. It's not, the point is the database of hashes are good enough to tell them things about you. They could do a lot of different malicious things with that knowledge, primarily because it's not anonymous information. They likely have GPS, so they know where you are at the same time, even not having GPS, they include wifi, and some have cellular chips.If you think what we're talking about equates to PGP, you are seriously confused about how privacy works.

perching_aix 4 hours ago | 0 points

this. they're being very particular with their words.

bita_nidir 5 hours ago | 0 points

Remember, "no answer" is still a data point.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_inference" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_inference</a>

ale42 6 hours ago | 0 points

<a href="https://archive.is/jBJdd" rel="nofollow">https://archive.is/jBJdd</a>

PinkaDunka 5 hours ago | 0 points

Interesting that in the beginning it says 'We know that many TVs use automatic content recognition (ACR)' but according to answers none of those manufacturers do.So which TVs do the ACRs, and why Verge did not send those questions to them? Hisense?

eli 5 hours ago | 0 points

None of the manufacturers who answered that question admitted to using ACR via screenshot. LG uses audio samples, which is basically the same. Google admitted that some of their hardware OEMs may install ACR. Sony and Hisense didn't answer, but have both been reported to use ACR. The TCL TVs that come with Roku I assume do it as well.

ammar2 5 hours ago | 0 points

> The TCL TVs that come with Roku I assume do it as wellThey definitely do, I have a little snippet on their image recognition ACR from when I hacked my Roku TV here: <a href="https://blog.ammaraskar.com/roku-tv-philips-hues/#reverse-engineering-the-tvs-recognition" rel="nofollow">https://blog.ammaraskar.com/roku-tv-philips-hues/#reverse-en...</a>

sixothree 2 hours ago | 0 points

Wait did they claim to not use screenshots during ACR generation? Or did they claim they don't _store_ screenshots.I think they're using "collect" to mean something specific and "store" to mean something specific, neither of which fit our definition of collect and store.

mzajc 5 hours ago | 0 points

Sony Bravia TVs, at least the 2015 model, bundle the tv.samba.ssm package, and the TV made periodic requests to the samba.tv domain without opting into anything. Samba TV is a spyware company in the ACR business.Here's the APK in case you'd like to take a closer look: <a href="https://files.zajc.tel/unlist/6361bb6b86f2ed10e2e75a0deb3269c3717470c0-SSM.apk" rel="nofollow">https://files.zajc.tel/unlist/6361bb6b86f2ed10e2e75a0deb3269...</a>

drnick1 38 minutes ago | 0 points

This would be an interesting reverse engineering exercise for Claude or GPT. Anyone interested in spending some tokens?

agile-gift0262 4 hours ago | 0 points

FYI I disabled the app (alongside many other undesirable apps) on my Sony TV via adb and there's no longer network requests to samba.tv, and everything I care about is still working fine.

heresie-dabord 5 hours ago | 0 points

> which TVs do the $EvilsThingForMoneyThat the Television Business transformed from a) an advertising conduit to b) a propaganda conduit to c) a live-surveillance technology tells you all you need to know.Whether the Corporations answer your questions or not, their claims of doing The Right Thing are untrustworthy.

deathanatos 1 hour ago | 0 points

> but according to answers none of those manufacturers do.Literally, LG's answer in TFA says they do, despite the mealy-mouthed-ness around not capturing screenshots.

CivBase 5 hours ago | 0 points

Or they could just be lying. I honestly expect it at this point.

toomuchtodo 5 hours ago | 0 points

Have to make it regulation and law, with penalties for lying. Regime change has made this more likely, call your Congressional representative. Loop in Louis Rossmann and fulu.org if necessary.It is fundamentally a citizen data security and data privacy issue, which only regulation and the law can solve for (i argue, based on all available evidence and information). But asking nicely or trusting corporations and management? lol, rofl even.

ilamont 3 hours ago | 0 points

Not just penalties, penalties with teeth, and an actual enforcement plan or clear liability tied to their ability to operate in a given market.

parineum 2 hours ago | 0 points

It is illegal for a publicly traded company to lie about things that their shareholders might care about.

autoexec 1 hour ago | 0 points

That's because our laws are written to protect shareholders but not you

toomuchtodo 40 minutes ago | 0 points

Regime change has arrived, and it is time to write better laws.

mitxela 33 minutes ago | 0 points

Meet the new regime, same as the old regime. Watch, they won't change anything.

toomuchtodo 5 minutes ago | 0 points

Nihilism is free, you are welcome to it. They haven't even been seated yet (takes place on January 3rd, 2027), we should give it a chance, I think.

dreamcompiler 2 hours ago | 0 points

Right now there are essentially zero penalties for lying about this stuff. So if lying makes them money, they are going to lie.

doctorpangloss 4 hours ago | 0 points

watch videos on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Netflix, Apple TV, etc. so that the telemetry at least goes directly to the vendors and their partners in an accurate, compressed channel directly associated with your subscription account(i am joking but the cognitive dissonance about telemetry is so stupid. you are watching TV on a subscription service, someone already knows who is watching what.)

thesuitonym 4 hours ago | 0 points

That's a fine argument if you're watching videos on those platforms, but ACR also phones home when you're watching local content, too. Your Jellyfin server, Blurays, video games, content from your computer, it all goes back to the mothership.

doctorpangloss 3 hours ago | 0 points

your internet connected videogames on consoles report telemetryyou are running jellyfin on a device, like a NAS. it reports telemetry. docker reports telemetry. you download jellyfin, microsoft gets the telemetry. you update jellyfin, it gets the telemetry. you download radarr, docker and microsoft get the telemetry... all of this stuff reports telemetry. github, you can see your own repositories' usage and telemetry! graphs/traffic. it's all there...

amiga386 2 hours ago | 0 points

> you are running jellyfin on a device, like a NAS. it reports telemetryJellyfin Server packages are hosted on repo.jellyfin.org, so the Jellyfin organisation gets the data that you're probably still running Jellyfin and want updates, not Microsoft. I will accept that if you use the Dockerised version, Docker or GitHub will get that data instead. None of this is "telemetry", e.g. detailed usage information. It's quid-pro-quo; you want to know if there are updates, you ask the update server, it records that your IP looked for updates.Jellyfin Server collects data and stores it locally on your device in logs and its database (e.g. viewing data, login sessions). This data doesn't leave your device.What Jellyfin Server _will_ share a lot of, is data about your collection, to its metadata providers. You chose those when setting up your libraries. In return, they hand back nice metadata and pictures. So TheTVDB.com, OMDB, MusicBrainz and others you've configured, get queried about "Film name (year)" or "TV series S01E01" or "Band name Album name" and thus learn everything that's in your collection... but not whether or when you've watched it.

drnick1 31 minutes ago | 0 points

> you are running jellyfin on a device, like a NAS. it reports telemetry. docker reports telemetry. you download jellyfin, microsoft gets the telemetry. you update jellyfin, it gets the telemetry. you download radarr, docker and microsoft get the telemetry...Not if you run one of the "good" Linux distros and FOSS tools like Podman. Then there is no telemetry at all.The AOSP (Android core) does hardcode some Google services like a fallback DNS. I patched that out of the source for an x86 Android build that runs on my TV box. So there can be zero or very little telemetry if you actively avoid it. You mostly need to avoid Big Tech stuff.

GrinningFool 3 hours ago | 0 points

I play games, I know Sony knows about what I play. I watch netflix, I know Netflix knows what I watch.Etc...But there is a difference between the company whose services I use knowing about the service use, and the television mfg knowing about all of my activity.

mwwaters 1 hour ago | 0 points

It’s very difficult to know, in their contractual language, that the providers don’t aggregate their information in some way.

doctorpangloss 2 hours ago | 0 points

Why? Why is Microsoft and Netflix any better of a steward than LG? If you don't like LG TVs, why do you keep buying them?

anticorporate 54 minutes ago | 0 points

As others have pointed out, Microsoft does not get to know what I'm watching, when I'm watching it, or that watching it ever occurred. They may know that an IP which is occasionally associated with other things I do pulls a number of container images from GitHub every so often, and that a small minority of those container images are for applications that can host local media content.Conflating that with actively spying on the content of my television programming is wrong.

peezd 1 hour ago | 0 points

It's more of a statement that "Or" is better than "And" I think.

AnneTrotter 3 hours ago | 0 points

Did I consent someplace to having my TV tell its manufacturer that I am using an Amazon fire stick? No? Then it's wrong for my TV to send that info out.

alyeska2 2 hours ago | 0 points

We need to differentiate "actually consented" versus "clicked accept on an intentionally misleading, long EULA that popped up on the screen once".These companies get away with these things in part because they can point to users accepting some agreement by using the service where clause 12 subsection 4 addendum C says they can do it, using some terminology nobody reads or understands.

mwwaters 1 hour ago | 0 points

My LG TV did pop up asking for EULA consent before being able to use WebOS. I did not consent to microphone terms (which has the infamous terms saying it’s your responsibility not to break eavesdropping laws). So the microphone function doesn’t work, which is fine.The EULA terms I did agree to likely had a clause allowing for returning the TV to not be a contract of cohesion. As for why I consented to ACR, I guess I have a lot going on and privacy (for, say, location data) in a contractual way is difficult.Supposedly the LG TV does not send ACR data out without agreeing to the EULA. It gets into non-falsifiablity to just say “duh, of course they do.” Well, it’s what they say and there’s no evidence they do if the EULA isn’t agreed.Now the fire stick and its services have their own EULAs.The libertarian contractual ideology obviously falls apart in real-world conditions. I had to agree to a lengthy contract to pay for parking after I had already parked. I had to rely on unconscionablity or some practicality (I.e. assuming I didn’t sign over one million dollars in the parking EULA) to get through my day.

scuppernong 2 hours ago | 0 points

yeah, if you're watching porn on your computer, the porn website already knows, so they'd might as well forward that info straight to your mother

vander_elst 25 minutes ago | 0 points

> 14. Does disconnecting a TV from the internet prevent all these forms of data transmission?I wonder what other possibilities there would be here e.g. via radio or via Bluetooth to your mobile so that such a device can transmit? That would have been an interesting read

ourmandave 5 hours ago | 0 points

Did any of them confirm the myth that the TV attempts to auto connect to any public wifi it can find or comes with a built in 5G modem?

deltoidmaximus 2 hours ago | 0 points

I don't really many (or any?) people suggesting that they're currently using 5G modems. Just that it is a likely next step assuming hardware costs go down to make it worth the hassle as a secondary channel.The public wifi one is funny. It seems totally like something they'd do, but totally open wifi doesn't really exist anymore so the window for that scam is likely closed. I doubt they'll bother with it at this point.More likely would be cutting Comcast in on things in return for using the public wifi channels they have on their customer's routers that they already use for cell service. But it might be easier/cheaper to just make not connecting to wifi more and more painful for customers instead though, you only need to trick/wear down one user of the household to win this battle so if they just slowly turn up the harassment feature they'll get 99% of people in the end.

phendrenad2 3 hours ago | 0 points

This would be trivial to test. Just drive your TV and unsecured wifi AP out to the middle of nowhere and see if it tries to connect.

tosti 50 minutes ago | 0 points

<pre><code> > Drive your TV to the middle of nowhere </code></pre> And plug it into... what? It still needs power.Why not run hostapd in open mode with logging on and see if it bites?

krupan 5 hours ago | 0 points

RTFA

tk75x 4 hours ago | 0 points

Always good advice, but to answer their question, only Samsung mentioned that their TVs do not connect to open wifi networks on their own, and the question specifically was not asked.

KoftaBob 4 hours ago | 0 points

The article doesn't adequately address this actually.The interviewer asked "Does disconnecting a TV from the internet prevent all these forms of data transmission?". Obviously if the TV is completely disconnected from any internet connection then it can't transmit the data, but that would require removing the wifi radio itself.Disconnecting the TV from your home wifi still means they can try to connect to any other public wifi. Samsung were the only ones who explicitly addressed that in their answer: "Samsung TVs do not connect to open Wi-Fi networks on their own."

ourmandave 4 hours ago | 0 points

I honestly don't care enough to wade through it.It's just usually with Smart TV articles, someone takes a break from their Black Helicopters Tracking app to show up and repeat it.

tencentshill 4 hours ago | 0 points

Or even: Paste the article in any AI and ask it

swframe2 3 hours ago | 0 points

I think it is better to use AI to root the devices, get them to run linux and run an open source media app. The TV manufacturer's default OS is low value.

jazdw 1 hour ago | 0 points

The value is that they can display copy protected 4K content, open source media apps cannot.

salawat 1 hour ago | 0 points

In other words, they successfully implemented a vertically integrated monopoly, and you're rewarding them for it?That won't alter behavior positively.

zug_zug 51 minutes ago | 0 points

Exactly, if anything it motivates me to go torrenting, even though I had stopped doing that for 20 years

mitxela 31 minutes ago | 0 points

Why wait? Just do it. You get high-quality DRM-free files without paying a cent.

arcanemachiner 1 hour ago | 0 points

Has this even been done by anyone, ever?

fudgy73 3 hours ago | 0 points

This can only be done on Goolge TVs, correct?

cael450 5 hours ago | 0 points

Is there any TV I can buy that doesn't spy on me?

afavour 5 hours ago | 0 points

Every time this discussion comes up folks point out that you can dumb displays marketed for business use. But they typically cost way more.Conventional advice is to buy a smart TV and never connect it to the internet. Just plug in [device of your choice] to HDMI.

FuriouslyAdrift 4 hours ago | 0 points

Problem is that they have wifi chips that will scan and connect to cell phones. The TV manufacturers have agreements with the cell providers for open wifi services on all their phones so you can't block it unless you live in the middle of nowhere and even that may change with LEO satellite service.I opened up my LG TV because I saw it doing aggressive wifi scanning even when the wifi was "disabled" and physically removed the antenna wire and wrapped the whole guts in RF blocking foil.

deadbunny 6 minutes ago | 0 points

Not a shred of proof has ever been provided for something so trivial to test.Scanning neighboring wifi networks does not mean it's connecting to them.

afavour 3 hours ago | 0 points

I believe you on the aggressive WiFi scanning but I’d have to see concrete proof about the phone part to believe it. Draining users phone batteries via WiFi hotspot functionality that the phone doesn’t even show to the user would be a very big deal.I imagine if they were going to strike a deal with the phone companies they’d just embed cell chips in the TVs and connect directly.

FuriouslyAdrift 2 hours ago | 0 points

There used to be several different things for free wifi for subscribers that also got used by national networks. Cellco, AT&Ts home boxes had open wifi that was available to any AT&T subscriber for wi-fi calling, etc.

nosrepa 1 hour ago | 0 points

Comcast/Xfinity does this.

gosub100 3 hours ago | 0 points

I don't know if they do it either, but if they use hashes they are in no way draining the battery of someone's phone to send a few bytes every so often. That's not me saying it's okay, mind you.I've told myself if they start putting 5G in TVs I would either glue a faraday mesh to the back or open up the TV and ground out the antenna or remove the WiFi chip if possible.If they would keep the spying to matching my shows with programs that are being aired or on popular streaming services, sports, or whether I mute the commercials, that wouldn't bother me. Screen grabs would , especially if I use it on my computer. But history has shown this starts off benign and eventually devolve into listening to the room at all hours and keeping it forever in a Bluffdale data center because "think of the children" / "national security".

GrinningFool 2 hours ago | 0 points

> The TV manufacturers have agreements with the cell providers for open wifi services on all their phones so you can't blockThat's a strong statement, what's your source?

FuriouslyAdrift 2 hours ago | 0 points

Where I work, several pieces of equipment from vendors have embedded cellular and wifi that the vendor pays to have service with ATT or Verizon.

robbiep 4 hours ago | 0 points

I’m sorry what? There are phone network providers that pimp out your phone’s wifi and data connection without telling you?I’m not sure I believe you? (Not that I can’t believe a company would do something dodgy behind your back, but I just don’t think our phones would go that far off piste - opening a wifi network has battery power implications that I think would have been discovered/widely known before)

stuxnet79 3 hours ago | 0 points

Not only that, if you have home internet they will pimp it out to nearby cellphones because that helps patch up weak network connectivity in certain areas.Comcast / Xfinity definitely does this. I have gotten many 'suspicious activity' CAPTCHAs on popular websites while using my home internet because of this. The routers provided by Xfinity are very locked down so you can't do anything about it.Let's not even get into WiFi Motion which uses WiFi to track you inside the house. I'm sure it is enabled by default in most households [1][1] <a href="https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-motion" rel="nofollow">https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-motion</a>

peezd 57 minutes ago | 0 points

You can get a gigabit router for $100 that works on xfinity which is worth it over their gear. Which is typically sub optimal anyway.

nosrepa 1 hour ago | 0 points

Last I checked you can still turn this feature off.

Klonoar 4 hours ago | 0 points

Is there any source you can actually cite for the cell phone bit…?

FuriouslyAdrift 27 minutes ago | 0 points

I know the services exist for various things but specific to TVs, it was just a hardware hacking thread on Reddit and a few mentions on X. Nothing concrete.

deltoidmaximus 2 hours ago | 0 points

May I ask what model of TV and if it didn't have a e-key wifi module that could be removed rather than wrapped inside? Mine is older but the service manual seems to indicate there is just a regular module in there I could pop out.

FuriouslyAdrift 2 hours ago | 0 points

From last year. It has a board at the bottom, but I didn't want to remove it (the TV gave all kinds of warnings and took forever to turn on if it was removed).

deltoidmaximus 31 minutes ago | 0 points

> the TV gave all kinds of warnings and took forever to turn on if it was removedUgh, I was afraid of that kind of thing. The manual for my older LG indicates there's UI option to disable wifi entirely. Of course, it doesn't actually exist.

throw0101c 4 hours ago | 0 points

> But they typically cost way more.Yes, because the price is not subsidized from the selling of personal information.> “The business model is shifting away from making money on TV sets and instead to making money on ads and data that is delivered by those TV sets,” said Paul Gray, Omdia’s Research Director, Consumer Electronics and Devices, at last week’s HbbTV Symposium in London.* <a href="https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2024/11/18/tv-companies-selling-sets-at-a-loss-for-advertising-rewards/" rel="nofollow">https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2024/11/18/tv-companies-sell...</a>

thesuitonym 4 hours ago | 0 points

This is just made up. Spectre sells TVs that do not have any smart features and they do not cost any more than similarly sized TVs.

amavect 3 hours ago | 0 points

Where do you buy those? Searching tells me that Sceptre has no stock.<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1wbjk0o/sceptre_tvs_appear_to_be_unobtainium_any_other/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1wbjk0o/sceptre_tv...</a>The Amazon and Walmart links given on Sceptre's product pages don't link to any televisions. Example: <a href="https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U515CV-UMRDD-50-4K-UHD-TV-product1524category1category73.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U515CV-UMRDD-50-4K-UHD-...</a>

thesuitonym 1 hour ago | 0 points

Ah beans, I bought mine a while back, and assumed since they were still listed on the website they were still available. Guess there is no option anymore.

ragall 3 hours ago | 0 points

> Yes, because the price is not subsidized from the selling of personal information.No, it's because their target is businesses which aren't so sensitive to price and like the extended warranty that comes with.

parineum 2 hours ago | 0 points

They also are rated to be on 24/7 at very high brightness levels so they are visible in bright areas.

landmass 4 hours ago | 0 points

Yes, a common response is not to connect to WiFi, but I'm not 100% persuaded that it's a good answer. I don't connect my Kindle or some medical equipment to WiFi, but somehow they both (possibly Over The Air tech) are shared with the companies. Also, Amazon Sidewalk shares my bandwidth with others nearby against my stated wishes.

mexicocitinluez 4 hours ago | 0 points

Are they shipping TVs with that capability, though? I understand a medical device needing cellular in case wifi goes down, but would they go through that effort for a TV?

sgerenser 2 hours ago | 0 points

They don't, this is just a persistent myth.

simoncion 2 hours ago | 0 points

> ...this is just a persistent myth....just like "These TVs are recording what you're saying and analyzing what you're watching and sending that data back to HQ." was a persistent myth.These companies have been demonstrated to give zero shits about your privacy and -at least in the US- won't be meaningfully punished for behaving in profoundly antisocial ways, so the smart move is to expect that they are or very soon will be making full use of the hardware that's installed in that TV that you paid to take home from the store.

deadbunny 3 minutes ago | 0 points

Except testing of a TV connects to an open WiFi network when networking had not been setup is trivial to test yet not a soul claiming they do this has ever provided a shred of evidence.

BatchJob 4 hours ago | 0 points

"Your device of choice" is not a solution. Your device of choice is still "spying on you" per the definitions provided here.They have microphones and listen to conversations while transcribing the words to listen for "wake words". THey are in fact always awake, and transcribing the words they hear.They all send telemetry and usage data and they all scan for devices in your home and SSIDs.The only difference is that you think you can trust these devices vs the TVs which use ACR.I dont see much of a difference here.

turtlesdown11 2 hours ago | 0 points

AppleTVs do not use ACR. They also allow you to turn off Siri, location tracking, analytics data, voice input data, etc.so, no they are not in fact all sending telemetry and usage data

BatchJob 2 hours ago | 0 points

That may be true. But remember to location track all they need is your wifis SSID and your IP. Opt out is good, most users by design have a hard time turning this stuff off. My wife has had many difficulties trying to turn off Siri and keep it off for years.

RiverCrochet 4 hours ago | 0 points

Then, someone's going to say that TVs could be automatically connecting to open Wi-Fi networks. I don't think that's a thing any more. I haven't seen any open Wi-Fi networks around me in a long time.I'd love for a TV to include a 4G/5G connection that they pay for; it'll be hacked for free Internet before the first production run leaves the store shelves.

drnick1 1 hour ago | 0 points

Open up the TV and remove the WiFi board.

RiverCrochet 1 hour ago | 0 points

Is it always a separate board? I'm not too familiar with TV boards, but most other things designed to run embeded Linux have the Wi-Fi at least soldered on to the board, and at most part of the same SoC that contains the CPU.

drnick1 54 minutes ago | 0 points

Perhaps not always, but in many popular models like the LG C-series, the WiFi hardware is a separate board:<a href="https://partpricecheck.com/parts-lookup/lg-oled65c5aua-oled65c5aua-ausqljd" rel="nofollow">https://partpricecheck.com/parts-lookup/lg-oled65c5aua-oled6...</a>

Barbing 5 hours ago | 0 points

$1050:<pre><code> Samsung QB55C-N 55" UHD 4K HDR Commercial Monitor without Wi-Fi </code></pre> <a href="https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1828914-REG/samsung_qb55c_n_qbc_n_55_uhd_4k.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1828914-REG/samsung_q...</a>3 HDMI ports. Any downsides using as a TV?Reposting from nine days ago <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50332351">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50332351</a>

drngdds 4 hours ago | 0 points

It's an edge-lit VA with no local dimming so it's not going to look great compared to most modern TVs, especially at that price point

derf_ 2 hours ago | 0 points

Here are the options I have found, targeted at roughly 85" (because that is what I am looking for):Sceptre U860CV-UMRD: 4k HDR @ 60 Hz(8 ms), 300 nits LCD(DLED), 3xHDMI 2.0 (HDCP 2.2) ACR, OS: None?Samsung QB85C-N: 4k HDR @ 75 Hz(10 ms), 350 nits LCD(VA), 3xHDMI 2.0 (HDCP ?) 1xACR, OS: Tizen 7.0, AV1 supportLG 86UR340C9UD: 4k HDR @ 120 Hz (5 ms), 330 nits LCD(DLED), 2xHDMI ? (HDCP 2.0) 1xACR, OS: webOS 6.0ViewSonic CDE86G3: 4k (not HDR) @ 60 Hz(?? ms), 500 nits LCD(VA), 3xHDMI 2.0 (HCDP 2.2) 1xACR, OS: None?And, because this is HN, even though it is only 65":Flanders Scientific: XMP651: 4k HDR @ 60 Hz (?? ms), up to 4000 nits QD-OLED, 1xHDMI ? (no HDCP) 4xSDI, OS: None?I believe none of these have Wifi. None of them is perfect. Only the Flanders Scientific model has an OLED display, but it is roughly 10x the price of the others (this is a reference monitor, which is very much not targeted at consumers). It also only comes in sizes up to 65" and only has one HDMI port, which does not support HDCP at all. If you only need 55", they have a 2000 nit display (V550) that supports regular HDMI inputs (but is still quite expensive).Of the remaining displays, the ViewSonic is the brightest, but does not have HDR support. The LG display supports the highest refresh rate and is probably the cheapest, but only has HDCP 2.0 (I think?), and runs webOS, which I view as the least trustworthy of the options. The Samsung display is the only one with built-in AV1 support (if that matters to you). They also have some older models (e.g., BE85FX-H), which may still be available somewhat cheaper, but I can find very little information on them. None of the displays appear to support HDMI 2.1 or 2.2, so 4k HDR is limited 4:2:0 chroma at 60 Hz. The ones labeled "OS: None?" clearly have an OS (the ViewSonic one advertises a 7 second boot time, for example, despite being labeled "OS-Free"), but it does not appear to be any of the major known-problematic ones.I have no direct experience with any of these, so I cannot prove that they are not still spying on you.

drnick1 1 hour ago | 0 points

Just buy a consumer TV and don't connect it to the internet. Remove the WiFi board or desolder the chip if you must. It's better than paying five times as much for a worse display.

jaggederest 1 hour ago | 0 points

I have a Sceptre display, they no longer make or sell TVs.

chasingthewind 4 hours ago | 0 points

I bought an LG commercial display at the exorbitant $1k price point a few years ago and every single time I walk past it I feel good about the money I spent. Does it look worse? Probably? Did I plug in a FireTV stick that is also spying on me? Yes. But I still consider it to have been preferable to just have a (relatively) dumb display that does not know when I play a dvd or blu ray and can’t tattle on me if I connect the TV to my Game console and play something embarrassing like Train Simulator 17 Nerd Edition.

Barbing 3 hours ago | 0 points

Didn’t expect the fire stick(Wish Apple had an incredible response to every single question, but while I’m still a fan, not going to use this comment as a plug… A little disappointed)> Nerd EditionOoooh the expansion dropped!!

subscribed 4 hours ago | 0 points

Samsung? The company displaying ads on the expensive fridges?I'm not sure they're not doing something else.Edit: watch the video "Reverse Engineering Proves What We Suspected All Along" on the Low Level YouTube channel for the example.

JTbane 4 hours ago | 0 points

I sure do love paying 2x the price for less hardware.

Barbing 4 hours ago | 0 points

∞x less ickMaybe gotta find one used from a business offloading their old ones.

drngdds 4 hours ago | 0 points

Practically speaking I would just buy whatever and then not connect it to the internet. (Theoretically if there's an unsecured wifi network with no login requirement in the vicinity the TV could still connect to it and send your data, but no one has demonstrated any TVs actually doing that.)

peezd 54 minutes ago | 0 points

Surprised this comment was so far down the page, exactly this. Just don't connect to the internet.

TheSkyHasEyes 3 hours ago | 0 points

This is my plan when my beloved dumb TV dies. I'll statically add bunk ip configs tho and let it stew.

RunSet 3 hours ago | 0 points

You can pay a significant premium for a "business" TV but the cost effective option is to get a consumer grade television and never allow it to connect to the internet.

throw0101c 5 hours ago | 0 points

"Commercial" displays/televisions perhaps:* <a href="https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-commercial-tvs/" rel="nofollow">https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-comme...</a>

thesuitonym 3 hours ago | 0 points

Spectre still sells dumb TVs. The panels are fine, though they don't have any OLED options. Sound quality is...Well, most people don't use TV audio anyway.

Macha 1 hour ago | 0 points

Monitors. Though it's a "for now", some of this has been sneaking in there.

MattSayar 4 hours ago | 0 points

Connect it to your router and use NextDNS/AdGuard on your home network

BoingBoomTschak 2 hours ago | 0 points

<a href="https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1914223-REG/viewsonic_cde65g3_cdeg3_series_65_uhd.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1914223-REG/viewsonic...</a>65" VA (not edge-lit, DLED) without any OS (doubt), $1000

gib444 4 hours ago | 0 points

Yeah but they cost ~$1000

MBCook 5 hours ago | 0 points

I was impressed LG answered every question and quite directly, assuming they’re telling the truth.I was quite disappointed in Apple for dodging so many of them and giving non-answers. They need to tone down the corporate speak and take a lesson from LG.When asked if a user can erase everything the correct answer is not a thesis on privacy, it’s saying “Choosing Erase all settings and data will remove everything on the device back to factory fresh state”. They already have the perfect answer.Apple has good answers for many of the questions they skipped too. But they look bad by not even trying to answer.

tonytamps 4 hours ago | 0 points

What makes you defend Apple when they won't defend themselves? If they have good answers why did they evade the question? Is it possible your basis for your belief they have good answers has changed and those answers will no longer be "good"?

MBCook 3 hours ago | 0 points

I’m not defending them here. I was calling out the contrast between that and how their messaging looks terrible.I know they do have good answers as I use the Apple TV and know what it does. They may not satisfy super hard-core privacy people, but if you’re willing to opt into the Apple ecosystem then within those constraints I think they’re very good.But thank you for accusing me of being a fanboy. That was very productive.

tonytamps 3 hours ago | 0 points

My questions are genuine. Reading any intonation from the test is from your own mind.

unpleasurable 1 hour ago | 0 points

Here is the first accusation at you in this thread: you read like an apple apologist

tupac_speedrap 6 hours ago | 0 points

The problem is the regulators in the US are in bed with the companies so they can say whatever and do the complete opposite and then get fined a trivial amount of money and just keep doing it

CGMthrowaway 28 minutes ago | 0 points

Is that really the problem?Or is the bigger problem that there is no privacy-friendly consumer grade TV available on the market?

forinti 6 hours ago | 0 points

Not only that, but most of the public is oblivious or unconcerned about this topic.

noja 6 hours ago | 0 points

Because the news is in bed with them too.

giantg2 6 hours ago | 0 points

Because most people don't give a shit until something negative happens to them from that direct source.

robot_jesus 6 hours ago | 0 points

Yeah. This is exactly the problem. There is too much of a disconnect from the action to the impact in this case. I think if most people saw precisely what data is collected on them and how it is used (and how often it is part of data breaches from these identity resolution platforms and third parties), I think they'd care more.But nearly everyone has more urgent and pressing concerns like making monthly rent or a medical bill or gas money. So ACR on a TV doesn't register.

andsoitis 6 hours ago | 0 points

> if most people saw precisely what data is collected on them and how it is used (and how often it is part of data breaches from these identity resolution platforms and third parties), I think they'd care more.What are the chances of an individual being negatively affected in a serious way?Intuitively, I expect it to be so negligible that it isn't worth losing sleep over.

giantg2 5 hours ago | 0 points

I would say the chances of a negative impact is on par with the chances of negative impacts on most of the hottest debate topics such as guns and abortion. Identity theft, swatting/doxxing, and stalking can have serious impacts and are not that uncommon. They're just uncommon enough that most people don't care until it happens to them.

cowlevel 5 hours ago | 0 points

Still low, but people do register creepiness when they directly see the creepiness, even if nothing resulted from it yet.

trinsic2 5 hours ago | 0 points

This is one of those things that is hard to quantify. Although I'm sure someone has. It negatively impacts society overall, very slowly over time. It has the effect of eroding private life in subtle way that it's barely noticeable until we find ourselves in a surveillance state where corruption is everywhere. Let me know if that sounds familiar to you.I did a presentation on surveillance capitalism awhile back[0][0]: <a href="https://www.scottrlarson.com/presentations/overcoming-surveillance-capitalism-with-awareness/" rel="nofollow">https://www.scottrlarson.com/presentations/overcoming-survei...</a>

mrguyorama 4 hours ago | 0 points

It's more profitable for LG to sell your data to advertisers than to build and sell the TV itselfThe negative effect is the exact sky high prices that Americans keep complaining about. The point of all that advertising data is to nudge you towards accepting higher prices or buying things you otherwise wouldn't.Every dollar of revenue in the advertising industry is money taken from consumers and spent on unproductive waste to get you to spend more money instead of anything like making a product better or investing in capacity or researching and developing new products.Google makes money by making you spend more money. Facebook makes money by making you spend more money.

throw0101c 5 hours ago | 0 points

> What are the chances of an individual being negatively affected in a serious way?Perhaps if said individual is a politician and a television is compromised to record what happens in their home (or even bedroom).Or perhaps compromise televisions in hotel rooms (politician or not).

giantg2 6 hours ago | 0 points

I really don't think most people would care more when you show them examples of others. Some people would, but most would not. We see this all the time with legislation around rights in the US. Much of the voting population lack the capacity for deep critical thought and don't care to practice empathy from even a devil's advocate perspective. Stuff like tracking speech/identity online, abortion debate, gun debate, etc. Nobody cares unless they are directly affected.Take guns for example. If you use guns, then you see a value to them and generally oppose mire restrictions. If you have been shot or robbed with a gun (or know people who have), then you dont see the value of guns and want more restrictions. If you are neither of these things then its easy to not care and say sure to more restrictions because they don't impact you and aound like they might provide some benefit, especially if just looking at the surfqce level stats. Same concept for abortion and online tracking/identity, especially once you mix in the think-of-the-children arguments in each of these.

stronglikedan 5 hours ago | 0 points

And something negative hardly ever happens to them, or anyone, from that direct source, so why spend a brain cell on it.

giantg2 5 hours ago | 0 points

Or because it's so secretive the people don't even know the source was from their device spying on them. "Oh, some hacker on the darknet stole my data" is the track that many non-tech people would see this.

WarmWash 5 hours ago | 0 points

The worst thing for privacy advocates is that there has yet to be a general public reckoning with the ad-economy of the last 20 years.For all intents and purposes, the average person who has paid no mind to their privacy over that time period is really no better or worse off than the person who has devoted hours to combating all forms of invasion.If there was a mass scale visible event of privacy loss, i.e. Meta somehow ends up in a shamelessly evil sociopaths hands who decides to start very publicly embarrassing random people with privately collected data, there would be very swift and immediate action (yes the parallels here are not lost on me, scale is the difference)Just look at datacenters. The public didn't even know what a DC was 6 months ago, and now politicians are getting elected to ban them. What happened? AI gave the mass public a common sensation of fear. Privacy has still not had it's "AI fear" moment.

Marsymars 3 hours ago | 0 points

> Meta somehow ends up in a shamelessly evil sociopaths handsIt's not clear that it isn't already, but you know, lawful evil rather than chaotic evil.

keybored 5 hours ago | 0 points

You see that, Timmy? Every time someone complains about something, somenone says that it happens because no one cares. What’s the logical conclusion, then? To not care yourself. Because it would be too difficult to change anything if you’re completely alone. And so you have thousands of people each in their own bubble, each thinking that they are alone in caring about, well, anything, and that therefore nothing can be done.

DannyBee 6 hours ago | 0 points

Because they have other things to worry about. Certainly you realize how privileged a world you have to live in to be able to spend time worrying about whether your TV is spying on you, right?

francisofascii 6 hours ago | 0 points

Sure, but I would hope food, shelter, clothing, and not being spied on would be available to most citizens, and not just those who are privileged.

esikich 5 hours ago | 0 points

You put those things in the same sentence but they don't even remotely carry the same weight. People are sick and dying and have to weigh weather or not they want to declare bankruptcy or go to the doctor. Or buy their medication vs buying food. Their TV serving them directed ads isn't even in the same universe.

settsu 3 hours ago | 0 points

You're arguing the same thing, just from a different perspective.

thesuitonym 3 hours ago | 0 points

Ah yes, because there are people who are hungry in the world, nobody should be concerned about anything until world hunger is solved.

settsu 3 hours ago | 0 points

Ok sure, but if you're going to play that card, then you have to also say that they can and should recognize that those "other" things are often also symptoms of the same disease.People are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time (and they are capable of placing appropriate energy towards the walking to not trip because they were too focused on the gum chewing...)

BLKNSLVR 6 hours ago | 0 points

On the flipside, how fucked up the world is that TVs spying on you had become normalized.The problem isn't with people being too busy, it shouldn't be up to the people, it should be a government regulation problem. There's a lot of 'todo' around potential breaches of PII, so why not do something about the ridiculously large and seemingly increasing trade in exactly that from almost anything you purchase nowadays, including the place you purchase it from. And they're all selling it to aggregators and advertisers and any other shady c*nt with enough cash to buy it.... and now it's all going to be fed into AI for additional pattern matching and de-aggregation and re-identification, because that's where the return on investment is. And once it's in there, there ain't no cleaning it out again. You're in the corpus, all your personality fingerprints, forever.Gross governmental negligence across the entire West.

RHSeeger 5 hours ago | 0 points

And how privileged a world the _other_ people live in where someone else is worrying about it _for_ them.

keybored 4 hours ago | 0 points

The news? Or the underprivileged? The news doesn’t cater to the underprivileged in general, and might well be “in bed with” companies on this point.It’s curious this ritual of relatively well-off individuals—and your bio supports that theory—pointing fingers at each other for having privilege. Certainly when they are talking about a topic that affects everyone with a TV, not whatever people of their means get up to that the underprivilged don’t.People who care could do the work for all of us. It’s not like everyone needs to care about surveillance in television gadgets in order to make a difference.Or, you know, not necessarily that focused. The comment you are replying to just said that the news are in bed with companies. That often generalizes beyond tech gadgets.

andsoitis 6 hours ago | 0 points

> unconcernedOne would think that should cause more people who are paranoid to reconsider their assumptions and calibrate their concern-level.

Henchman21 4 hours ago | 0 points

Almost all these TVs run Android. So where’s the GrapheneOS for TVs?

TheSkyHasEyes 3 hours ago | 0 points

That would be a lot of work(as cellphones and their boot/ecosystem are vastly different) but hopefully we will see something similar someday.

waffletower 3 hours ago | 0 points

Apple did/does not want to take the Sony/Samsung product diversification path, but it is a shame for them not to branch out more. An actual Apple branded TV under Tim Cook probably would have honestly respected our privacy. I blocked my LG TV's MAC address from accessing our wifi.

annoyingnoob 2 hours ago | 0 points

This is part of the plot of 1984, where people willing put these things in their homes.

germoney 1 hour ago | 0 points

Lying sacks of shit

StevenWaterman 5 hours ago | 0 points

I want to know what Sony said. Because apparently they responded to the request, but answered 0/17 questions

krupan 4 hours ago | 0 points

It sounds like the best option is to get a TV, never connect it to the Internet, and use a separate Roku device.Or go a step further and build your own Linux HTPC.Of course if you are already sharing everything about yourself with Google/Amazon/OpenAI/Anthropic then who cares?

righthand 3 hours ago | 0 points

Who cares? People who aren’t aware but do care.

subscribed 10 minutes ago | 0 points

Roku? That device tracking everything you watch, not just with ACR? :)No screen doesn't imply no surveillance -- <a href="https://www.engadget.com/2227777/roku-how-to-stop-tracking-everything-you-watch/" rel="nofollow">https://www.engadget.com/2227777/roku-how-to-stop-tracking-e...</a>

evolve2k 4 hours ago | 0 points

Well well well, we know now which cat has had their face in the cream (aka who is clearly visible most guilty).. that would be Hisense, who got caught today and had nothing to say.For all the company’s who had reponses along the lines of “we don’t do thing X that some others are doing”.. full bets it’s Hisense doing each of these things.

headz 5 hours ago | 0 points

> I put together 17 yes-or-no questions...And they still managed to answer them in multiple sentences, and sometimes multiple paragraphs.

OroPla 5 hours ago | 0 points

Dell isn't in the list, so I guess we keep pretending that monitors and TVs are somehow different.

LollipopYakuza 5 hours ago | 0 points

Does Dell manufacture monitors with Internet connection and/or microphones? Worst they could do would be through an automatically installed driver (on Windows, like LG did).

OroPla 2 hours ago | 0 points

Monitors like the P2726DEB have Ethernet, a built in webcam and a built in microphone.Mine only has the Ethernet port, since it has a built in docking station, but they still could take snapshots of what is on my screen. For now, I am trusting DELL a lot more, though. Part of that is having paid about three grand for my U5226KW. At that price they better don't need to spy on me to make money.

44mkultra69 1 hour ago | 0 points

TV manufacturers: "in all the obvious ways. you wouldn't be surprised how boring people are, especially those who get it and set others up. I mean we even called it set top box back in the day, maybe we should have called it not worth the trouble box. see what I mean. that's how inspiring you are. thanks for the interview. maybe try oxygen, retard."

Oarch 6 hours ago | 0 points

> looks at TV, forgetting its brand.Toshiba.Hmm. Not in this list.

esskay 5 hours ago | 0 points

Toshiba don't make TV's anymore, haven't for a long time (around a decade). Unless it's very old your TV is some other brand rebadged as Toshiba.If you're in the US it was almost certainly made by Hisense. If you're in Europe it'll be Vestel.

FinnKuhn 5 hours ago | 0 points

Same with Philips for me. Would have been interesting to know.

tosti 3 hours ago | 0 points

Philips TVs are LGs nowadays afaik.There's Samsung, LG, Sony designs TVs but has them made elsewhere, and Vestel. All of the cheaper brands are made by Vestel.

detourdog 6 hours ago | 0 points

I was disappointed that the article described Apple's answers to some questions as not direct. They should have published the indirect answer. Let the reader judge the answers.

ericbarrett 6 hours ago | 0 points

Disagree - when a company responds with mealy-mouthed corporate gruel, designed in bad faith to obfuscate and distract, there should be no obligation on the part of the investigator to propagate it.

kevincox 6 hours ago | 0 points

Why not both? Have the reporter editorialize in the article itself but link to sources and references including the full response as a way of showing their work and letting readers validate.

goodmythical 5 hours ago | 0 points

I'd argue that this just descends into sophistry. If the journalist isn't as convincing as the corporate speak, the company could potentially pull the wool over a reader's eyes.I think "chose not to provide a direct answer" is pretty clearly "technically they responded, but they waffled about in such a way as to have provided no meaningful information".The article isn't sponsored and so is under no obligation to reproduce what likely amounts to ad copy.